Renowned journalist and political commentator ANDREW MUJUNI MWENDA has been at war with supporters of Dr Kizza Besigye of the Forum for Democratic Change.
Over the years, Mwenda has gone full circle from the harshest critic of President Museveni to one of his most articulate defenders. Mwenda, who owns The Independent magazine, recently branded Besigye’s FDC supporters stupid. In this interview conducted last week, Baker Batte Lule tried to understand both Mwenda’s mind and the source of his anger against Besigye.
Do you really believe that Dr Kizza Besigye’s supporters are stupid like you said?
No. What I said, was meant to provoke them. The person who recorded that interview made a mistake. At the end you hear me say; is that provocative enough? Nevertheless, I think they are extremely emotional and senseless; yes.
Why is that?
Every time, they are incapable of making the most basic arguments. When you argue with them, the only response they know is to insult, accuse and to threaten. If I say Museveni has performed like this, you can respond and say Museveni has failed in this way. But you hear them say ‘Mwenda you’re gay, you have been bribed by Museveni, and you’re a cannibal’.
Does that reflect intelligence or utter stupidity?
I can, by the way, quickly judge the intellectual capacity of a human being. There are young people who write to me and I say wow, these people are thinking. Besigye and his radicals represent the unthinking part of the Uganda elites.
I said, to discuss the future of Uganda we need to first discuss the internal organization and leadership of the FDC. The FDC people responded and said to discuss the future of Uganda we need to discuss the sexuality of Andrew Mwenda; does he sleep with women or men?
Do you think that is a thoughtful position? Andrew Mwenda is saying Museveni is in power so he represents the status quo; that is very clear. We are saying, this status quo needs to be altered because it is not the best for Uganda.
The largest opposition party in the country is the FDC. But it has been captured by an extremist, intolerant, fanatical and radical wing led by Dr Kizza Besigye who deliberately and actively funds that extremism. So, we are saying we need to discuss the internal organization of the FDC. If it wants to build institutions like it claims Museveni has failed; does FDC have institutions that it has built? You can’t give what you don’t have.
It must emerge as a well-organized and institutionalized party so that when it takes over the state, it replicates those internal structures in the state of Uganda.
But Besigye is no longer a leader of the FDC; how do you accuse him of failing to build institutions?
Can I tell you? Besigye is the leader of the FDC. Muntu is just a figurehead. Besigye only resigned the formal job of leader of the FDC, but not the effective job of leading the party. The greatest resource that the opposition and FDC have is the person of Kizza Besigye.
He has exhibited exceptional courage; somebody can even say foolhardiness; remember that every quality can be positive or negative depending on the circumstances. He has made humongous sacrifices and I appreciate it; he has been beaten by the police, he has been jailed, he has been charged with rape, murder and with every single case that is there on earth.
What is great about Besigye is that despite what has been thrown at him by the state; he has remained true to his beliefs. He has made enormous sacrifices and that is one of the greatest tests of a leader. When you sacrifice so much, people believe in you.
However, Besigye has miserably failed to even do 2% of what Mandela did; to understand that the sacrifices he has made have given him political capital that must be channeled in such a way that it becomes a positive force for reconciliation, unity and the advancement of Uganda. Besigye is using that accumulated political capital for personal benefit to become the president of Uganda.
You should ask Besigye what his aim is. I would want to think that the aim of Besigye is to build a democratic and prosperous Uganda. That Uganda would have three elements; one, political reforms in order to create a conducive atmosphere for free and fair elections, the second is administrative reforms to improve accountability and ability of the state to serve the citizens of Uganda, fairly, effectively and efficiently.
The third would be economic reforms to grow manufacturing and agriculture so that these sectors can create more jobs and incomes of our people. If you take those as the aim; it means that capturing the presidency is not an end, but the means to the aim. But that also means that capturing the state is not the only way you can reform Uganda.
How can you reform Uganda when you have no state power?
For example, it is important for you to capture parliament. How much has Besigye invested in increasing the presence of FDC in Parliament. They had 37 seats after the 2006 elections; 10 years later they have 36 MPs.
That time parliament had 295 members today, it is 425; that means 10 years ago they had 13% control of parliament, now they have 8.5% . Shouldn’t we question the performance of Besigye as a leader? So, Besigye has built a personality cult and personal brand at the expense of the party growth. This is debate we must have.
So, if he has built a brand thanks to his sacrifices why would you use that against him?
Besigye should stop these things of playing politics in Kampala to make headlines. He should use his accumulated political capital and his ability to mobilize money to go on the grassroots and try to establish branches of the FDC. Try to help FDC people win elections at local councils. My thinking is that as a soldier, Besigye is a very poor politician. And as a politician, Besigye is equally a very poor soldier.
In military or business strategy when you’re weak and facing a very strong enemy, do not attack the enemy where he has concentrated most of his forces. The NRM is 20 times stronger than the FDC and it is backed up by the state. All of us know that fact. Museveni has concentrated most of the resources around protecting the presidency.
If the NRM are weak as the FDC but at every time you hustle with them at their most fortified position, it means you’re expending your energies against a brick wall and you’re destroying your resources there. The best strategy is not to attack a strong enemy in a front assault, but their weakest points where they are not well-defended.
So, in every election the FDC should not be at the presidency where Besigye spends all his resources; it should be at district councils, parliament, among others. And can I tell you; in every election, two thirds of MPs and chairmen of LC-V are not returned. This means that at every election, 67% of the seats are open for the opposition to play.
Are you saying FDC should not have a presidential candidate?
No. But they should have a weak candidate and concentrate their efforts at winning parliament. Today the NRM has got 83% of parliament; does Besigye think he can make reforms with that kind of parliament if he had won?
Do you think all those MPs would remain in the NRM if Besigye had won the presidency? History says something else.
Very good; but why would they leave the NRM to join the FDC? The NRM candidates go through two elections: the party primaries and the general elections. So, they incur a lot of debts. So, when they get to power they need to recoup their investments.
How would President Besigye make them cross; he would pay them money. If Besigye begins bribing NRM MPs, what will he tell FDC ministers in cabinet? That ‘don’t steal’? With this, he will find himself running a corruption bonanza and Museveni will look like a little baby of six months. Those mentally-retarded FDC fanatics, this is what they don’t want us to discuss.
Has Besigye stopped anyone within the FDC or the opposition at large from doing those things you’re accusing him of?
He is the leader of the party and we have to hold him to account. Let him not lie that he is not the leader. If he is not the leader, why doesn’t he go back home and stop talking?
His radicals are saying he is god; he must not be questioned. But I as Andrew Mwenda I led a movement to say that Museveni and family are not beyond public scrutiny; he came down from heaven and came to talk to us. We are also winning against Besigye. His family and leadership competencies must be opened and debated; whether the price is my assassination, being called a homosexual; I don’t mind.
Let them throw all dirt at me. I’m very happy to accommodate insults, abuses, even death to defend one principle; nobody in Uganda, not Museveni, not Besigye, is above scrutiny. I will also express my views whether you say, I’m bribed or not.
I think Museveni as a leader is 100 times better than Besigye. Museveni is more democratic; I have criticized him all the years but I go to his house in Rwakitura, he serves me tea, I ride in his car and he even comes to my radio talk show which was platform for criticizing him.
I sense personal gratification here; hasn’t Besigye done all those for you?
The other day I went to visit him at his house when he was under house arrest, I found him in an angry mood. He told me, I had been compromised. Besigye declared that he is going to run for the presidency on the 28th of October, 2000, on the 19th of November, exactly 22 days later, this is what I wrote, [he reads from an old Monitor newspaper cutout]
For example the problems that Besigye thinks have derailed the movement from its original objectives are likely to permeate his own presidential bid. A clique of people in his campaign office whose beliefs are clientelistic think that criticism of the colonel’s strategy means that the person voicing it has been bought.
The same clique thinks that every warning, that Museveni should not be taken lightly because he has many achievements to his credit in this country, means that the bearer of such a message is a supporter of Museveni… Those who say that they know Mwenda so well, can they answer this?
People are wondering why you are expending a lot of energy criticizing Besigye who doesn’t hold any state power instead of Museveni who has been around for 31 years.
Yes, Museveni has been in power for a very long time and the country is suffering from Museveni fatigue; it’s also true that this country is ripe for change.
The problem is the person on the brink of benefiting from any change is Besigye and his radical, extremist and intolerant group. It’s the aim of every Ugandan who believes in democracy and progress to first stop Besigye.
Museveni is a small problem because he is expired and he has lost a lot of ground in Uganda. But we ask where are the moderate of FDC like Augustine Ruzindana, Morris Ogenga Latigo? They have been silenced in this country.
Who is silencing them?
The other day I assaulted these FDC radicals; have you seen what they did? I’m harder than a rock; you think Besigye is a very strong guy; he is a baby as compared to me; you can throw anything at me but you can’t move me even one inch.
The papers can write all homosexual stories against me but I actually think that homosexuals are normal people like anybody else; so, I don’t think it is an insult.
But how many people are willing to take the heat directed towards me? So, the only person who has spoken out is Nabilah [Naggayi, Kampala woman MP]; others can’t criticize Besigye. He is god. We have to constitute a third force in this country.
Who has stopped you from constituting that third force; do you need to first destroy Besigye before you build it?
That is what I’m doing. I have started a movement; are you not following it? Have you ever seen a post on Facebook read by 430,000 people in Uganda; it has never happened.
Why do you think people are flocking to me; because people now recognize that a different voice has come to say, we think Museveni has done a great job for this country and he represents a great past for Uganda but not the future.
But given a chance to vote between Museveni and Besigye, I will 100 times vote for Museveni even being president for life but not Besigye and his extremists. It is easy to work with Museveni, and not Besigye with his fanatics.
You talk about the Facebook posts, but do you take off time to read the comments? Many of them are negative.
Empty tins shout louder; did you know that? But I want to tell you at first 90% of them were negative but now it is about 75%.
Go and read my last post that Besigye must go; many comments attacking Besigye’s extremism are growing and I think by the end of this year, we will have constituted a very big center.
But why aim your guns at Besigye who has no power; how does that help Uganda?
You think that power only resides with the state? Besigye has enormous power in this country. It’s so bad that he misuses it. I have power; you do not know that; but I don’t work in government.
I can go to President Yoweri Museveni with my statistics on the banking sector, and say; I think you need to take action. That’s why I have grown to respect Museveni because he has taken about 98% of my advice and where he has not, he has explained to me why; like on Katosi. I can work with Museveni.
At what point did you discover that actually you can work with Museveni? I have read some of the articles you have written before describing him in uncanny words.
When people speak in abstract, I can’t understand. Of course as a person who has been writing for the last 20 years you would expect some contradictions in my writings. Would you say so? There is no single person who has written for 20 years whom you will not find a million contradictions.
What I can say is that Museveni has always been a good performer. There have been moments when I have been angry or focused on one idea and said Museveni has been a failure but when I have been reflective, I have said Museveni has presided over a very successful economy.
Is presiding over a very successful economy like you are saying enough to describe someone as a performer?
Tell me other indicators. When I was in jail, I wrote a an article that Uganda is freer than the United States. Look for it and read it.
Are you an NRM supporter?
No. I don’t belong to the NRM; but I agree with President Museveni on many things. However, I also believe that many of his ideas are now old; we need fresh thinking and new and rigorous energy.
But if you put him against Besigye, I will vote Museveni. Ask Wafula Oguttu, he is like my father. He was my boss and mentor but in 2001 he asked me but I told him I will vote for Museveni, not Besigye because I used to stay with Besigye and Winnie in Luzira everyday and I know him only that he was not a fanatic like he is now.
Would anyone achieve all those things you’re accusing Besigye of not having done under a domineering government, or what some call a dictatorship, of President Museveni?
Museveni is not domineering like his critics. I made my career criticizing him but one day one of the people who called me was Museveni. That time, I was a young journalist, I think 30 year old but he would call me and say I agree with you on this and this and disagree on this and this. So with this, many would say he has bribed me.
Hasn’t he? That is the perception among many people.
Nonsense; why would Museveni need to bribe me? Those people are not saying Museveni has bribed me but they say if they accessed the president the way I do, they would be asking for money.
Don’t you ask him for money?
For what? I run a business where I earn a salary from; why would I ask Museveni for money?
You wouldn’t be the first one; there are others with businesses and probably with more money than yourself but we have seen them begging from the president.
I’m sure they don’t have the brains to make money like I do.
Elites like you have promoted the notion that there are fence-sitters in the NRM who fear the Besigye kind of politics. That is the same argument you fronted when promoting the candidacy of Amama Mbabazi. In the end it turned out you were selling hot air.
I never supported the candidacy of Mbabazi. He had too much baggage. We need to have a system now that can allow alternative leaders to emerge. Besigye has captured FDC and turned it into an extremist’s party. He accuses Museveni of having captured the state but he is 20 times worse than Museveni.
Besigye is a cancer, a scourge that must be eliminated from the politics of Uganda. I’m willing to ally with Museveni first to stop Besigye extremism, then we can recreate the center. These other problems of Museveni are secondary.
The primary role for this country must be to destroy Talibanism, Boko Haramism, Al-shababism of the FDC. They might not be terrorists in the bombing sense of the word but social media terrorists who have intimidated all voices in FDC with the exception of Nabilah who is my heroine; she is the only one who can speak out. [Abdu] Katuntu is another person who has spoken out. I call upon other FDC leaders, Amanya Mushega, Augustine Ruzindana, Ogenga Latigo, Reagan Okumu, even Ibrahim Ssemujju, you are seeing so many things happening; Besigye is leading this party to disaster; stand up and say we believe in democracy and civilized debates.
Do you see Museveni orchestrating the amending of the constitution to lift age limits?
I think Museveni is going to amend the constitution to remove age limits.
Would you support that move?
I’m totally opposed to it but if the replacement of Museveni is Besigye, I will support lifting of age limits. As long as Besigye threatens to capture power, I will be with any force that will stop him.
FDC has degenerated into a cult like Kibwetere where the leader cannot be criticized. And whoever criticizes them becomes a victim of solid attack and character assassination. They think that they are the only ones who can fight. Can I tell you? I’m the worst enemy up against them.
It seems calling you gay had a lot of impact on you.
No.
Why did you then post that picture embracing a woman as proof that you’re straight?
The picture of me and my wife had been posted four days earlier. Maybe you don’t know me; I really don’t give a damn. Maybe I’m a sociopath. I’m incapable of the normal rules of society. I realize I don’t attend weddings, funerals and I don’t do many other things people do.
So, you think these little people in FDC will make me change my picture; how? I posted that picture before Christmas and long before I recorded that message. They think they can have an effect on a person like Mwenda; they are just a disastrous bunch of deplorables as Hillary Clinton called Trump supporters.
But that is a large group of people you’re calling names!
I think they are a minority; let me give you an example: Besigye goes to town and Kale Kayihura[IGP] sends five police officers to arrest him, they pick him like chicken; have you seen anyone doing anything; if they are millions, why don’t they protect their leader?
99% of FDC people and leaders are decent, democratic-minded. I have gone to their constituencies and campaigned for them and contributed money to them. I’m a great admirer of the FDC but I’m opposed to extremism.
There is talk that NTV suspended your News Night show because its brand was suffering for hosting you.
You’re telling me news; what I know I was travelling so much yet I had to appear there three to four times a week. As I’m talking to you, I’m traveling out of the country so the show was not working for me because of my irregular manner.
Actually Agnes Konde [NTV MD] even proposed I do a recorded show; therefore don’t abuse NTV like that; that it can bend because of the stupid pressure from FDC supporters.
Do you remember that resignation letter in 2007 where you lambasted the Nation Media Group and its majority owner the Aga Khan? You are now back at NMG’s KFM radio and recently NTV. Wouldn’t I be right to call you a flip flop?
At that time the Aga Khan was controlling the editorial policy of The Monitor from Paris. I actually liberated The Monitor. Right now we can say anything on KFM and the Aga Khan cannot do anything.
Many panelists have left since you returned to host KFM’s Friday Panel of Journalists; they accuse you of being very imposing.
Onapito Ekomoloit is still a member of the show and before I went back there, Nicholas Ssengooba had left. Nobody has left. If anybody says so, tell them they are liars.
bakerbatte@gmail.com